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Talk:Dragon Ball Z: The Return of Cooler
If it took place in the ten day wait for the Cell games, then why can't Gohan turn Super Saiyan? Why are my edits getting deleted, I said this even could have also occured in timeline 4, which is a timeline where there was no Cell, and in the timeline Goku lived, and also the Z fighters managed to defeat the Androids. I wrote this in this because it makes perfect sense! if the events in timeline 4 occured, Gohan did not need to become a Super Saiyan, and Goku, Vegeta and Piccolo would be the strongest, which is what happens in the movie. Why does this wiki keep deleting useful information? (Anu-Generation (talk) 14:23, January 29, 2013 (UTC) :It was decided that those informations belongs to the trivia section, not timeline placement. Ask User:10X Kamehameha for more details. 16:15, January 29, 2013 (UTC) Previously, the timeline placement sections got cluttered with 90% complaints about the movie plot and only 10% timeline placement. If you have good information regarding confirmed inconsistency with no possible explanation, then it can go in trivia. Timeline placement is just a quick sentence or two to help people watch the movies in the intended order. 23:44, January 29, 2013 (UTC) :No I have no problem with the plot. I just wanted to add the Timeline 4 bit for the movie to make a bit more sense. The Plot is very good. This is one of my favourite movies, but I just wanted to say it could have been in timeline 4. (Anu-Generation (talk) 04:51, January 30, 2013 (UTC)) It is pretty big speculation to suppose that the movie producers wrote the film in an alternate reality and when they never mention it. What is more likely is that they overlooked some things, or maybe they wrote the film before they knew what the manga was going to hold. 23:55, January 30, 2013 (UTC) :Yeah, but it could also have been in an alternate timeline. That is what I said, I did not say it was necessarily in Timeline 4, but could have been in Timeline 4. (Anu-Generation (talk) 05:01, January 31, 2013 (UTC)) And Trunks could be a woman, but we do not put speculation in with the rest of the article. 00:15, February 1, 2013 (UTC) I told him his edit was speculation when he left me a message on my talk page. Timeline placement Okay, so I knew this was a controversial section, and ordinarily I would discuss it before rewriting it, BUT there's literally no evidence to support the existing placement at all, and although the information sitting in that section has been there for a while, that doesn't necessarily mean it's correct. That's why I wanted my edit to be left and for a discussion to be held if someone wanted to change it back, not the other way around, but whatever, I guess procedure is procedure. Anyway, that's passed now, so I guess I'll lay out my case like I did in my earlier edit. I just hope this gets resolved quickly, because every day that that timeline placement remains unchanged and unchallenged is a day wasted, since it is inaccurate and misleads readers and undermines the encyclopedic credibility of this site. So, anyway, to first address the current timeline placement: the only thing that suggests the 10 days before the Cell Games is the fact that Dende is guardian and Goku is alive. But everything else in the movie suggests otherwise. 1) Gohan is still 12, therefore he has not been in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber, which I believe should take priority as far as facts go than Dende being guardian. 2) Vegeta is in space, suggesting he is doing his Super Saiyan training and the androids have not yet arrived. No other Z Fighters see him transformed, so this doesn't make their later surprise during the Android Saga inconsistent. 3) Neither Goku nor Vegeta show any sign of being Ascended Super Saiyans. 4) A sort of combination of numbers 1 and 3; if Goku was an Ascended Super Saiyan, Gohan should also be able to at least transform into a regular Super Saiyan, which certainly would have been helpful against the Cyclopian guards. But he doesn't, he gets captured, which if he was actually a Super Saiyan would be sort of dumb. 5) Goku still uses the Kaioken, which he stops using in movies once the Android Saga gets up and going. 6) Trunks is nowhere to be found, whereas he is in Broly: The Legendary Super Saiyan which does take place during the Cell Games' lead up (in that movie, Ascended Saiyans are actually present). The most logical explanation, therefore, is that Trunks hasn't come back from the future yet to help the Z Fighters fight the androids. 6) Piccolo is one-hit KO'd by Meta-Cooler, suggesting that he is weaker than baseline Goku. Considering that if he has been fused with Kami he should be stronger, and yet he is not, the fusion therefore can't have taken place. Since placing this movie before the Androids arrive leaves only one inconsistency (Dende) and the curent placement leaves at least 7 (as stated above), I think that the cleanest and most reasonable explanation of this movie's placement within the chronology would be to put it immediately before the Androids arrive. I hope I can get a consensus on this soon; in fact, I'm surprised that it's gone this long without revision, to be honest.--[[User:Lord Hyōga|'Lord Hyōga']][[User talk:Lord Hyōga|'Tree of Ages']] 22:49, September 6, 2013 (UTC) :I agree with him, and he rewrote it pretty good. From the current point of view, it says it takes place in the 9 day wait of the Cell Games. EXCEPT it has inconsistencies that Gohan is a kid, can't turn Super Saiyan, and other inconsistencies. From this guy's point of view, it takes place in the 3 year training or Androids, EXCEPT it has Dende as Kami. It has less inconsistencies than saying it was from the 9 day wait. So I guess we should change. 22:56, September 6, 2013 (UTC) :Okay, so I rewatched the lead-up to the Cell Games, and I guess the fact that the Namekians don't recognize Goku and only mention him saving them from Frieza and him also not knowing where New Namek was to begin with is another plot hole, but I think we can all agree that no matter where we place these films, the continuity is going to be sketchy because the animators probably don't even watch their own series to know what the plot is...--[[User:Lord Hyōga|'Lord Hyōga']][[User talk:Lord Hyōga|'Tree of Ages']] 04:10, September 15, 2013 (UTC) ::Now that I've thought about it some more, I don't think the fact that Mori doesn't recognize Goku in the Cell Games Saga is really relevant, because I doubt that the movie content would have been alluded to even in the anime (outside Garlic Jr.); besides, technically this movie was released after that part of the manga had already taken place, so Mashima couldn't have referenced it anyway, even if he was of an inclination to do so. Therefore, I withdraw my comment about Mori not recognizing Goku. 19:49, October 7, 2013 (UTC) But Moori never actually met Goku. Moori was killed before Goku arrived, and when Moori was on Earth, Goku was in Yardrat. 19:53, October 7, 2013 (UTC) :Yeah, but I'm guessing he would have met him during this movie; I think he's there with a Namekian who looks like Nail. He recognizes Goku then, but doesn't during the Cell Games Saga. But everything else (again, besides Dende) points to pre-Androids. 19:58, October 7, 2013 (UTC) "First time" trivia 10x Kamehameha removed this piece of trivia from the page: "This is the first film in which Super Saiyans (Goku and Vegeta) work together to combat a villain, and the film is also the very first time Goku and Vegeta ever work together and fight side-by-side," and his reasoning was, quote, "'First time' trivia need to be very significant and important. Goku and Vegeta collaborate other times, fighting on the same side, and literally side-by-side, is true but not important." If you ask me, this is a very important and significant piece of DBZ history within Goku and Vegeta's development as rivals and comrades. Goku and Vegeta have, up to this point, never fought on the battlefield together. Against Frieza, Vegeta only fought by himself, or alongside Krillin, Gohan, and Piccolo. Against the Androids, Vegeta notably refused to work with anyone at all and always fought alone. Besting and fighting against Goku is his greatest obsession, and Goku is Vegeta's biggest motivation for getting stronger and better. One could even say Vegeta's rivalry with Goku makes up his entire character after Frieza is killed. So it is very significant to see Vegeta actually sharing the battlefield with Goku for the very first time, as it is an extremely rare occurrance that hints at Vegeta starting to warm up to Goku, which is a huge subplot of the entire Dragon Ball Z storyline considering the massive inner turmoil Vegeta suffers over the rivalry throughout the entire series (which finally explodes in the Majin Buu saga) until the Kid Buu saga when he finally admits that Goku is better than he is and actually starts considering Goku a friend. Thus, with the Goku/Vegeta rivalry being such a large and important piece of the DBZ story, it is a highly significant moment for them to actually share the battlefield together for the first time, primarily for the sake of Vegeta's character development. Therefore, I motion that this piece of trivia be returned to the page. EBsessed (talk) 18:47, January 14, 2015 (UTC) :Vegeta has fought as a Z Fighter before this point, and as you point out side-by-side with Krillin, Gohan, and Piccolo. He begs Goku to defeat Frieza, has a child with Bulma, and gets along with Goku in person. They fight the same enemies on the same side multiple times before this film, just not at the same time. He already has a good relationship with the Z Fighters and the Earth. The fact that they happen to be in the same place at the same time after all the aforementioned significant things just isn't that special, especially since it happens many more times later. I think it's worth noting in the section for this movie on Vegeta's page (something like, "...teams up with Goku to fight side-by-side, the first of many times this happens."), but not in trivia here. Let's hear from some others about whether or not this is interesting enough for trivia for this movie. 00:25, January 15, 2015 (UTC)